I'd please you first look at the wheel in the book:
And then look at my tatting:
So I beg you don't be silent because I need your opinion.
I'd like you help me to understand, why the old picture shows those very long picots in the centre? How they can work without cupping the wheel? What do you think? Have you ever tried this one? Can the joining picots between large rings play a role? (maybe they should have been very long picots, too)
Changing the length of a bare thread or picots is like changing the number of ds in a chain, it seems affecting the whole pattern... Moreover, there's the tension of the bare thread, that changes if stretched.
I loved the journey of Jane through the book of Teiko Fujito. Read about it in her blog:
http://janemactats.blogspot.com
Pattern is the following:
- Start the centre ring leaving a tail from the shuttle, about 12cm (5in) of thread: 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2 (11 picots) - I'm purposely not saying the length of picots.
- leave a mock picot then tat a split ring with the shuttle and the tail: 6ds/6ds
- leave a bare thread - 1/8" - then tat a "large" ring: 4-2-2-2-2-2-2-4 (7 picots);
A)- leave a bare thread then tat a "small" ring 6+6, joining to the next picot of the centre ring
B)- leave a bare thread 1/8" then tat another "large" ring, 4+2-2-2-2-2-2-4, joining the last picot of previous large ring
- alternate small and large rings, repeating A) and B) for 10 times but for the last large ring:
- last large ring: 4+2-2-2-2-2-2+4, joining the last picot of previous large ring and the first picot of the first large ring.
The tail left at the beginning must be hidden inside the last large ring.
Important note: the edging in the book was tatted with size 80 thread and it is written "leave 1/4 inch of bare thread" between rings around, but nothing about picots' length.
That wheel - I hope - is the first for the edging I'd like tatting, with dmc white size 100 thread.
The only difference with the wheel in fig. 30, page 12, that I tatted last year, it is that those large rings have 6 picots instead of 7.
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Changing the subject...
Updates for the doily with curled rings and wide picots: it got a name! I choose "falbalà", because all those picots look like a frilled skirt. Falbalà is an Italian word, with uncertain etymology, maybe from French, it means a strip of ruffled fabric put in the bottom of old dresses, it also means volant or ruffles. But actually, a word not so used nowadays!
Γειά σας (Ya sas)
( http://www.cyprus.com/useful-phrases-in-greek.html )
Ninetta
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Your motif(wheel) looks great!! :) As for the comparison to the picture, I see that your small rings joining to the center look larger than those in the original(they may just look larger) and that might make a difference, plus the outermost picots on the outside rings in the original look larger than your picots which would give more room to spread out too. These are just my thoughts.
ReplyDeleteI love your doily!!! It's so beautiful!!! :)
Thank you!!! Those little rings are 6-6 in the book but you could be right, I'd try to tat 4-4 and make all larger picots. I'll tell you.
DeleteI suspect it's the larger picots - both for ornamentation AND for joining - that make the difference. Having such long picots on the center makes the small rings look even smaller. Yours may be in proportion compared to the size of the larger rings, but the longer picots on the vintage picture make the small rings LOOK much smaller because they are sitting in a larger 'open' space. Try one medallion with much larger picots than you usually use and see how that works. Jane's discoveries and discussion on picot length(s) and bare thread length(s) were very enlightening.
ReplyDeleteYour doily is beautiful. Your pattern is lovely and the colors are, too.
StephanieW
Thank you so much,. I'll try that too :-)
DeleteBear in mind that it is almost midnight here, and my head is not "totally there", and that I am seeing the images on my tablet.....
ReplyDelete1. There do not appear to be any "joining" picots in vintage -- the rings are all tatted with complete picots. The picots are later joined by sewing. Hence the 'joining picots' become double the length between rings.
In your version, you have gone the other extreme and actually made the joining picots a bit smaller, I think?
2. When no picot size or BTS is given my thumb rule is to try to gauge from the picture how many ds they span. eg the ring picots seem to be almost 3 ds, if the picot is simply bent along the curvature. This gives something to work on.
Similarly for BTS - try to estimate how many ds it might cover.
These thumb rules will hold for any thread size. SO even if tatter is using a different size thread, they can still apply it to their own ds width.
3. Very long central picots will have a natural gravitational pull, unless the lace is stiffened while blocking.
Your medallion is very pretty, very symmetric, and slightly dense. The vintage one is very open, airy, lacy, and not as symmetric or perfect.
It is a personal choice and taste - nothing right or wrong (unless it is meant for a competition) :-)
Nowadays, with our highly visual medium we tend to prefer neat, symmetrical, precise working.
Climbing off my soapbox and slipping into bed ;-P
About #1: looking at the pic it seems to me that picots are joined, not sewed, but I may be wrong. It is also written in the pattern that they must be joined, but picture and text may differ in old books.
Delete#2 simply stated is : try to estimate the proportion or ratio ...
ReplyDeleteThank you g-) I remember the #2 rule from one of your posts :-) I should try this too. I absolutely agree with point #3, thanks for mentioning it.
DeleteYour idea of estimating picot size in number of DS (length of bare thread space or picot size) is wonderful. It really WILL make it easier when tatting with thread that is not the same size as in the pattern. Thanks! Great idea!
DeleteStephanieW
You're right, longer picots in the middle will require longer picots on the outside. Yours looks more modern because of the smaller picots. Is your thread perhaps also thicker than the original?
ReplyDeleteThanks a lot Jane. Well, I'm using a size 100, in the book they refer to a size 80.
DeleteI pretty much agree with the general consensus, longer joining picots on the outer round help make up for the long picots in the center. Also, I think the bare thread spaces in the antique version are a little shorter too.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much, I haven't noticed that about the BTS. Another difference between picture and the text.
DeleteI think yours looks much better, but when you keep in mind that back then tatting was pass along by looking a others and word of mouth and very poor pictures. I feel like they invented many things and even though they were off in measurement of picots they really were lacking in tools and measurements for lace making. they did great for what information that was available to them. I think they knew the pictures where off a bit ( and every one tatted slightly differently) and as long as they told you the size thread, they were hopping you would make the corrections to flatten the lace like you did.
ReplyDeleteas for your second question how do you write out the wide picot :) ? I think the answer is any way you want, as long as you show a reference or a key explaining to others what it is. I think a color change would work, or just tiny dots instead of a line so people know something is different!
Thank you very much Carollyn for your words, you're very supportive.
DeleteI usually use muskaan's tip #2 to determine picot and bare thread lengths when I'm trying to get the same look as in an illustration, but some images I've seen on tattingweed's Instagram account of her tatted mounted on lined templates reminded me that I used to use that method more in designing. So if you make your center ring with long picots and pin them out a circular template divided into equal pie slices equivalent to the number of picots on your ring (all of my geometry terms are buried somewhere in my brain), you can use the template to help you figure out ring, picot, and bare thread lengths for the next round. I hope this makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThank you! The circular template is a clever tip, I haven't considered it for such a little motif, but it works for sure!
DeleteAnd I apologize for missed and incorrect words. I was concentrating more on how to get my thoughts across and less on my typing.
ReplyDeleteOh well, you're absolutely forgiven, I have got the first place for incorrect words here :)
DeleteNinetta, this little motif is exquisite. I just came across it tonight and I can't wait to tat it.
ReplyDeleteMuskaan thaks for the tips, I always look for tips on how to as I don't have much experience. I've learned with tatting there's always something to learn every day, no matter how experienced one is. So thank you both. :)
Oh me again.... BTW this little wheel is also in the DMC book of charted tatting designs by Kristine Nikolajsen and Inge Lise.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments. I don't have that book, but I am absolutely sure that the pattern I followed here is from 1909. The wheel is a very old design in tatting, an early pattern.
Delete